SALT LAKE CITY, Utah, Aug. 12, 2016 (Gephardt Daily) — Organizers are predicting a turnout of 500 to 1,000 for Saturday’s annual LDS Church Mass Resignation.
And a lot of them will arrive in a state of fear and trembling.
“It’s really quite emotional for the people who are there,” said Steve Holbrook, an organizer of the recurring event, designed to support those in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who choose to resign their memberships.
“It’s always hard, right down to the wire,” Holbrook said. “We see people physically shaking as they sign the forms.
“For many, it’s just a big part of their lives people are going to walk away from. And for their friends and families who always hoped they would come back to the church, it’s the last nail in the coffin. It (resigning) is a hard thing to do.”
The mass resignation is scheduled from 2 p.m. to about 4 p.m. Saturday at City Creek Park, 110 N. State St., Salt Lake City.
Speakers are expected to include:
● Kate Kelly, an attorney and feminist who created Ordain Women, a group that worked for the inclusion of women in the LDS priesthood. Kelly was excommunicated from the church in June 2014, in absentia, after failing to attend a disciplinary council.
● Jeff Ricks, director PostMormon.org, will speak. Ricks began his first Post-Mormon support group for former church members in Cache Valley in 2002. Chapters now exist across the United States, and in Canada, Europe, Ecuador, Australia and New Zealand.
● Dominique Storni, an LGBT activist and transgender woman who was raised in Ogden as a Mormon boy.
● Patrick Ramsay, the Ogden writer who won the poetry contest at the 2016 Ogden Pride Festival with his work about the mass shooting at a gay nightclub in Orlando, Fla.
And there will be others. Holbook said earlier this week he was still formalizing the speakers’ lineup for the LDS Church Mass Resignation, an event held seven times in the past five years.
The resignation was planned as an annual event, but two extras have been held since the first. The most recent was in November 2015, and was sparked by the revelation of new information contained in an LDS handbook intended for local-level church officials, such as bishops and stake presidents.
Information new or not commonly known included:
● The directive that children raised in same-sex households would be barred from participating in rites such as blessings or baptism until they reached the age of 18 and denounced their parents’ homosexual lifestyle.
● The policy of viewing sexually active same-sex couples with church membership, even those couples who had long-term commitments or were legally married, as apostates.
Holbrook said most people who decide to resign their church membership fall primarily into one of two groups: those quitting for ethical reasons or those leaving over intellectual concerns.
Many who quit in November did so over ethical objections to the LDS church’s policies regarding homosexuality, which had just made headlines worldwide.
“That was the biggest upswelling I have witnessed,” Holbrook said of the emotional response to church policies in November. “That mass resignation, a week after the policy came out, that was the biggest one we have ever done. And I’m hearing that the LGBT issue is still very raw.”
The November event drew an estimated 2,500 people and about 2,000 resignations from the crowd, according to organizers. In the months since that event, Holbrook said, Utah attorney Mark Naugle, who handles resignations for free, has stated that he and his staff have processed more than 12,000 resignations.
Probably among those resignees were many who had intellectual issues with the faith and its history, Holbrook said.
“That was my own situation,” he said. “I stopped believing a little over 25 years ago, all based on historical issues I read about. I stopped attending, but I didn’t care that my name was still on the roll. I was born and raised Mormon, and I loved it. I had a wonderful upbringing.”
Holbrook said he began to read more about the early days of the LDS church and was disturbed by what he learned.
In essays scattered on the lds.org website, the church has addressed many of the issues that troubled him, such as the belief that American Indians descended from the Nephites described in the LDS scripture the “Book of Mormon,” a claim unsupported by DNA research.
Also addressed in LDS essays is the church’s former practice of polygamy, and the previously unpublicized level of church founder Joseph Smith’s participation in it.
But for Holbrook, it wasn’t until 2008 and the church’s active support of California’s Proposition 8, devised to make same-sex marriage illegal, that he felt moved to terminate his membership.
“That was a current-day event that the church was involved in,” he said. “I simply looked at the institution that exists today, and did not want my name associated with that institution. The present day church was up to things that I did not agree with.”
Holbrook said he wishes the public could understand that people who resign from the LDS church don’t do so because they are lazy or want to sin. In his experience, people leave the church because they feel betrayed.
This year’s mass resignation will not include a march to the mailbox near the LDS Church Office building to mail resignation letters, organizer Timmy Chou said. Most of the paperwork goes to Naugle for review, not immediately to the church.
Another change will be the addition of a memorial to those who committed suicide because they felt there was no place for them in the church, Holbrook said. The memorial may just be a cardboard sign, but people are invited to bring flowers or to stop and think about people they have lost.
To see a video Gephardt Daily shot at last year’s LDS Mass Resignation, click on the player below.
What Mormons teach about the birth of a handicapped Child and minorities especially in third world countries, what do expect when this was continuing revelation
“This privilege of obtaining a mortal body on this earth is seemingly so priceless that those in the spirit world, even though unfaithful or not valient, were undoubtedly permitted to take mortal bodies although under penalty of racial or physical or nationalistic limitations….” (Decisions for Successful Living pp 164-165) TLDP: 497- Harold B. Lee
“There is no truth more plainly taught in the Gospel than that our condition in the next world will depend upon the kind of lives we live here. …Is it not just as reasonable to suppose that the conditions in which we now live have been determined by the kind of lives we lived in the pre-existent world of spirits? That the apostles understood this principle is indicated by their question to the Master when the man who was blind from his birth was healed of his blindness, ‘Master, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?’ (John 9:2.) Now perhaps you will have a partial answer to some of your questions as to why, if God is a just Father, that some of his children are born of an enlightened race and in a time when the Gospel is upon the earth, while others are born of a heathen parentage in a benighted, backward country; and still others are born to parents who have the mark of a black skin with which the seed of Cain were cursed and whose descendants were to be denied the rights of the priesthood of God”
(Harold B. Lee, Decisions for Successful Living, pp. 164-165).
Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not a reflection of our worthiness or lack of it in the pre‑existent life? We must accept the justice of God. He is fair to all. With that in mind, we can account in no other way for the birth of some of the children of God in darkest Africa, or in flood‑ridden China, or among the starving hordes of India, while some of the rest of us are born in the United States? We cannot escape the conclusion that because of performance in our pre‑existence some of us are born as Chinese, some as Japanese, some as Indians, some as Negroes, some as Americans, some as Latter‑day Saints. There are rewards and punishments, fully in harmony with His established policy in dealing with sinners and saints, rewarding all according to their deeds.
Mark E. Petersen, Race Problems as they Affect the Church
Molly Miller, tell what you just wrote to a child in an underdeveloped country who simply wants to eat and knows nothing of the wonderful country we live in here. Tell that child he or she must suffer because in a previous life he or she was a sinner and now he or she must pay for those sins.
This is one of the many reasons I no longer attend the Mormon church. Mormons have been hoodwinked and are too scared to step outside of what they are taught to learn the truth.
Shane, I believe you and Molly are on the same side of this point. The first two lines are hers, the rest are quotes.
Uhhh….What the crap? Since when did the church EVER teach that being born in poor circumstances was a sign of bad choices in a previous life? That’s INCREDIBLY wrong and VERY MUCH against the doctrine the church teaches. FIRST: WE DON’T BELIEVE IN FREAKING PREVIOUS LIVES, EXCEPT FOR THE PREMORTAL LIFE, AND NO ONE WAS ‘PUNISHED’ FOR ANYTHING DONE THERE EXCEPT IF THEY CHOSE SATAN’S PLAN INSTEAD OF GOD’S, but then they wouldn’t be ALIVE here. SECOND: WE BELIEVE CHILDREN ARE BORN INNOCENT AND WITHOUT SIN. That’s one of the reasons why they’re baptized at EIGHT, when they start to understand accountability. THIRD: Children with severe disabilities are AMAZING. They’re pure celestial souls that were sent to earth to teach US something. FOURTH: LITERALLY NO ONE GIVES A CRAP ABOUT RACE IN THIS CHURCH, OR AT LEAST THEY SHOULDN’T. NO ONE. GIVES. A FLYING CRAP. DO YOU KNOW WHY? Jesus Christ doesn’t, and neither does Heavenly Father. We are ALL wonderful flipping children of God, who were born with DIVERSITY.
DO NOT INSULT MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS WITH YOUR MISUSE OF MY RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. You clearly need to take up your prejudices with your bishop, if you even are LDS. It’s NOT a punishment to be born black. IT’S DIVERSITY. IT’S ABOUT AS MUCH OF A PUNISHMENT FOR A FLOWER TO BE PURPLE INSTEAD OF PINK. PURPLE IS AWESOME.
Hi Abigail, I read your comment. The previous life they are talking about is the Pre- Existence, since the mormon church teaches ” we lived with Heavenly Father in the pre- existence”, that’s what they were talking about. Someone just posted a few quotes by prophet Harold B. Lee in which he mentions that ” people born with disability, poor countries, that are black, etc,” is because they are paying for not being faithful in the pre- existence. No one made up these quotes. These words were spoken by Harold b. Lee and you can research and find out for yourself. No one is trying to make mormons look bad. It is what it is. The truht can be ugly to hear. I’m sorry.
And for the record, 8 year olds are stil children and still don’t fully understand the consequences of their actions. I don’t agree with children being baptized into any religion. People should,be given that choice when they are mature adults, not when they are 8 years old. They are still minor under the law anyway.
And of course being balck is not a punishment. The mormkn prophet Brigham Young was one of the people that taught that black people were cursed and he also said that interracial marriages are an abomination. This is in Journal of Discourses”. You can find this book in the Harold B Lee Library in BYU. There is also a copy you can find on line and download. Unless the church doesn’t allow you to do that anymore. i myself married someone from another race and became ver upset when I found out Brigham young was a racist. Now I decided im not going to be part of a racist institution like that. Your choice.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_racial_issues/Blacks_and_the_priesthood/Understanding_pre-1978_statements
Mark Peterson is a delusional brainwashed apologist who proves his racism fight there. Prophets are just plain idiots impersonating God’s chosen. What a pile of steaming horse manure both of those quotes were.
Mark Peterson is a delusional brainwashed apologist who proves his racism fight there. Prophets are just plain idiots impersonating God’s chosen. What a pile of steaming horse manure both of those quotes were. Run away from this corportion masquerading as a church before you waste your mortal lives in it.
That is awesome let all the non believers leave. God’s church will make it without you.
Really nice thing to say from a follower of Jesus. I don’t think Christ said “to hell with the 1, we just care about the 90 and 9.”
Which church is God’s church anyway, considering that most of the wide variety of them each claim to be just that?
Dude, you need to catch up on your quotes, and stop taking them out of context. I know a lot of Mormons and they do not reflect what you just wrote. I looked up you quotes and you took them out of context, with is very academically dishonest. The Mormon are amazing people, i am glad to call several my friend.
Who is to say that even though people born in circumstances we deem unfavorable will not be given the best of all of God’s gifts in the next life? Only God our Father knows what His children deserve and He will reward them according to His knowledge, not ours.
Was an easy decision for me, and the best decision in my life. I wrote the letter telling them to remove me and my children from their records.
I was excommunicated in 1998 for having sexual relations with my then-2-year-long relationship. It was awkward at first, but extremely freeing in the end. Thanks for my freedom!
I agree with what Molly Miller has posted. That is what I have been taught and what makes sense to me. God knows our assignments and in the end we will all see that our assignments were just and appropriate. Likewise, all of us have the ability to do well in our assignments. That is why the man with two talents received the same welcome as the man with five talents. Both doubled their talents and were welcomed home. Only the man who did nothing with his talent was rejected. Likewise, if we do well with what we were given, whatever that may be, we will be rewarded and blessed.
I wish people who wish to leave the church would “leave the church alone” afterwards. It makes my testimony stronger when there is such resistance against something. It’s interesting to me that people join, fall away, and then turn into such haters that they feel they need to bash. I simply don’t get it. If you want to be a part of it then be a part of it, if you decide you don’t then walk away. It’s simple really, you don’t need marches, parades, and organized events to do it. If you aren’t strong enough to do it alone maybe you’re not ready to do it.
Cara, now just say that with the context of Scientology, Jehovah’s Witness, or FLDS, and maybe you will see the error of your statement. People escaping organizations that dictate the entire way they live their lives need both a large amount of outward support and experience a large amount of frustration and anger. If you had just left the JW’s religion and your spouse remained, wouldn’t you speak out against the JW’s religion because your spouse is commanded to never talk to you again? Sometimes the same thing happens in the LDS church, families fall apart because mixed belief marriages are not well supported in the LDS church, especially when one partner is leaving the church.
I feel the same way every time someone bashes Hillary Clinton. It just strengthens my conviction that she’s right.
Then you should feel even more supportive of Trump since he gets more bashing than Clinton.
Given the fact that you refer to it as “the church” is it safe to assume you’re LDS yourself?
I feel like it’s unfair to say that they should just have to leave it alone if they leave, considering that the church itself sends out thousands of young men and women to attempt to convert non-members. I feel if you want to avoid being hypocritical, then you have to allow others to talk negatively about the church, just as you might talk positively about it.
Frankly I’m surprised more people don’t welcome it, because in the end, the truth is the truth right? It doesn’t really matter what people say, it’s either reality, or it isn’t.
Do you think there is a valid reason that the church should be allowed to target non-members, but non-members should not be allowed to target the church? I’m open to having my mind changed on this, but it’s very up in the air for me right now, and I’m trying to understand your perspective.
That’s a biblical concept, preaching the gospel. We don’t “target” anyone, we target everyone. We send missionaries everywhere, but have the same gospel being taught in every meetinghouse around the world every sunday. That’s the opposite of targeting, it is equality. If we didn’t preach, could we even consider ourselves a Christ-centered church? Wasn’t that message of preaching one of Christ’s most prominent? Every Christian should be preach-minded, and we just happen to be more organized about it. Cara’s comment is really just about frustration that people can’t just be dissatisfied any more and stop something. They have to go to Reddit, or one of dozens of apps where they can spread their dissatisfaction to the whole world. Very few spread the word of good experiences because they are too busy to post every detail of their life. So now we meet to tell the whole world that everyone here hates this church or organization. Great, you’ve taken a whole day to say that “such and such” a place sucks. Will you do the same thing when the dry cleaners ruins your suit, the restaurant undercooks your steak, or your pot holes don’t get filled in? Would it be bad form for me to come to your house and protest your prejudice against our unpopular religious beliefs? When do the protests about personal choice stop? When do you stop protesting and start celebrating something to balance out the world?
Probably about the same time the church removes itself from politics and laws. The church has never been about personal choice. I do not have an issue with anyone who is LDS or any other religion, I do have an issue with said churches using the bible to interject their beliefs on society as a whole. You do you and let everyone else do them.
If you really want to have a balanced world, then you shouldn’t have any problem with people expressing both sides of the church. There are people with positive experiences and people with negative experiences and both groups have the righ to express themselves as much as they want. And yes, many of us protesr other things. I signed a petition today to stop police retaliating against those that film police brutality with their phones. Yeah, there are several cases in which if you filmed a police officer being abusive, then the police arrests you for exposing them. So we do protest things like this and we tell it like it is. If another church would do the things the Mormon church does, I would protrst about that church as well. It’s not just about protesting. It’s about protesting what is wrong, regardless of what church is doing it.
People are so against it because they were fed lies and half truths, there is no denying all the lies about church history that they don’t tell you about, but you can find all about it in church literature and genealogy , and not to mention that the church is just an old boys club who is all about money and telling you lies and feel good stories to get it from you
Let me tell you how you can get it. Since the mormon church has the freedom to advertise their religion and share their beliefs, through missionaries, movies, their magazines(Ensign, Liahona, New Era, Deseret News, etc) their TV channels ( KSL, BYU TV, etc) radio Chanels and more, in the same way, those who leave the mormon church has the right to share their beliefs, or their negative experiences about the church through marchs and demostrations, even thought we don’t have all the media power the mormon church has. I hope this made things clear on why people don’t leave the church alone like you said. It’s about sharing the other side of the church that the church doesn’t talk about.
There was a group of folks in the Book of Mormon who believed and held firm in the Church but because of persecution and taunts from non-believers, those folks were ashamed and embarrassed and fell away from that which not so long before they believed in deeply. Sounds to me like those folks today who have let go of the rod and succumbed to the ways of the world. But I respect their right to choose and say ‘God bless them ‘.
Infiltrators!
Chase, I find it curious that you feel someone is hypocritical if they don’t like to hear people bash their religion, after those people made the choice to leave their religion. Normally when we no longer care about something, there’s no interest in engaging in conversation. Unless we only think we’re past it, but don’t realize we’re really not settled with it, so talking negatively might give that final certainty that’s needed. Sending missionaries out to non members should be self explanatory. Either people are interested or they’re not, and send them on their way. That’s the same as anyone coming to my door, regardless if they’re a salesperson or a religious entity I have no interest in. I will politely accept they’re pamphlets, and that’s the end of it. Not interested, end of story. Religion is based on faith, and believing in something more than ourselves. I believe there is something more than just this, the present. God said, “I am the same, “yesterday, today and tomorrow”. It’s people who are not, yet he gave us that right, through free agency. If someone decides to renounce their religion, I don’t think it’s decided lightly, or I hope not. I have known a couple of people who have changed religions more than once, they were looking for something they felt was lacking and was looking for whatever it might be. My point to this is, I wish all these people well, and hope they find the liberation they think they’ll get. I hope their families don’t make the mistake of treating them differently. They’re still the same person they loved and cared about. In the end there’s only one judge and it won’t be any of us. Nor do I believe God will love them any less than the rest of us.
It’s ironic that anyone supports Kate Kelly on this subject, as she and many of her friends turned their back on me and ostracized me for questioning support for the “liberal” Dems. Criticizing the LDS Corp for being a selfish club and then turning around and pretending like being NOM is some kind of exclusive club for Democrat Mormons is quite hypocritical. A googling of crossdressing Mormon reveals the audio and video from the day I was assaulted for walking to churches of all denominations while advocating for the underdog and critical thought.
I find it interesting that people who leave the LDS church can’t seem to leave it alone. They will use any excuse to justify their obsession with discrediting the Mormon religion, everything from helping others find the truth to supporting victims leaving a cult. I find all of these rationalization dubious. I’ve come to the conclusion that exmormons, at some level and perhaps even subconsciously, are uneasy or unsure about their decision to leave the LDS faith, so they become preoccupied with proving the LDS Church a fraud, hoping that leading others away from the Church will somehow give credence to their disbelief. The more people fin”gut against the Mormon church, the more convinced I become of two things: the LDS church is God’s church and Satan wants nothing more than to cast doubt on the Mormon faith (using ex Mormons if necessary to execute his bidding).
Well, the mormon leaders do and say things to discredit the church themselves. There is no need for anybody else to do it. All the Information people talk about is found in LDS archives, is not made up. The true church shouldn’t be afraid to show the truht to its members.
Genuinely interested in the “American Indians descended from the Nephites described in the LDS scripture the “Book of Mormon,” a claim unsupported by DNA research…” bit. I thought recent(ish) DNA studies have found links to Europe?
http://sciencenordic.com/dna-links-native-americans-europeans
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/11/131120-science-native-american-people-migration-siberia-genetics/
I left 5 years ago, with all three of my children. It was the BEST decision I have ever made in my life. Thanks to the bravery of my one child, who made me face what mormonism REALLY is and has been, we were all able to shake ourselves free of that sickening and insidiously overwhelming miasma that calls itself a “church”. My only regret? That I didn’t leave sooner. That I didn’t keep up my questions when I was 16…instead of fearing to displease my parents and upset the status quo. I bowed my head and said “yes”, and wasted 50 years of a life. Was it easy? NO! I still hated to “disappoint” my siblings, but once knowing the truth, I couldn’t unknow it. Leaving feels like your whole world is pulled out from underneath your feet. Because, as a mormon, your whole world IS dictated by and wrapped up in the constant daily dictations of what you “should be” doing, thinking, feeling, wearing, drinking, eating and believing. It’s been a process of figuring out what I really think, and what I really believe. I lost most of my “friends”, who actually were just people I had been thrown together with, who were not true friends. The couple of remaining friends I have who are mormons are my true friends independent of mormonism, and never try to “save me” or encourage me to “come back”. I never felt like preaching that “the church” was true, but for the understanding and freedom I have now, I want to tell the whole world that it is NOT true.
WARNING – LONG POST WITH LOTS OF INTROSPECTION – This is a very interesting thread of comments and I usually don’t waste my time indulging, but I’m tired of unbelievers inferring that, since I choose to remain faithful, I must be a blind follower or that I’ve been “hoodwinked”. So, let me ask the non-believer a few questions. Either the church is true or it isn’t. People lining up to leave the church insist that the church isn’t true because Joseph was a polygamist and “sinned”. Of course, he sinned. The D&C is full of instances where the Lord rips Joseph Smith for the things he did. “Uh, Joseph, you asked 3 times about Martin taking the pages and I said no already…” The “ripping” by the Lord because of prophets sinning is common in the Bible. “Moses, I thought I told you that circumcision was important”. “Peter, I thought I told you a few hours ago that you would deny me three times”. What, are you going to tell me the church isn’t true because the leadership of the church are sinners??? Are you going to tell me that because Brigham was a racist that the Church isn’t true?? (BTW, if you were white in 1840, the likelihood of you being a racist was overwhelming). Are you going to whisper in my ear that Joseph was a polygamist (I thought Section 132 made that perfectly clear) or that he had 35 wives and some of them were underage??? (BTW, underage is a relative term and depends on the time period – look it up). Or that he tried to translate the kinderhook plates??? Or that the remnants of papyri that were found after the Chicago fire are funeral scrolls and not the story of Abraham??? Are you going to leave the church because you disagree with Brethren on policy??? This is nonsense. No one ever claimed Joseph Smith was perfect, only that he was a prophet – this is a big difference that many believers have already reconciled with their faith. And once you finally realize that prophets sin like you and me, then you can still call the priesthood restriction racist and wrong, but still have faith that Brigham was a prophet…
Here are three more important questions to ask yourself… First: Is the Book of Mormon what it says it is? Is it true? If not, then how did the original 1830 translation have so many “if-and” conditional statements that, while reading awkwardly in English, are a common translation from Hebrew to English (BTW, the same awkwardness is found when translating the Hebrew Bible directly into English)? How did Joseph Smith understand the Chiasmus literary structure, that is predominant in Hebrew writing? How did Joseph Smith know (prior to the Dead Sea Scrolls) that ancient people would write on metal plates? How did know to have Nephi’s writings from Isaiah, which are marginally different from KJV of the Bible, correspond very similarly to the Isaiah scroll what was found in Qumran in the 1950s? How did Joseph know that after the consensus among geneticists that the Native Americans were descendants from Asia, some obscure researchers would publish in Nature in 2014, that Native Americans have genetic origins from West Eurasia (i.e. the Middle East)? There are hundreds of other questions relating to the content of the Book of Mormon that must be asked if you have made a final decision to disbelieve…
Second: So, the remains of the papyri found after the museum fire don’t mention Abraham and instead reflect a common funeral writing found in other Egyptian writings. The relevant question: Is the Book of Abraham true? If not, then how did Joseph know about the strong connection between Abraham and Astronomy? How did Joseph know about the ancient framework for discussing the astronomy taught in Abraham? How did Joseph guess that physicists would later (like in the last 20 years) find that multiple galaxies cluster together and rotate around a larger mass? How did Joseph know to teach so clearly the doctrine of the premortal life in the Book of Abraham, which is taught in pieces in the Old Testament but not taught be the rest of Christianity? What if the Book of Abraham was revelation instead of a literal translation of the scrolls? Keep in mind, when Joseph translated the plates, the scribes said that he wasn’t reading off the plates as we commonly think. Just a thought to consider.
Third: If you cannot provide clear answers to the previous two groups of questions (and thousands more), then you don’t have evidence that the Church isn’t true. You are simply choosing to disbelieve. I will be the first to admit that I don’t have evidence that the church IS true. Instead, I’m making a different choice than the disbeliever. So, we have a dilemma. There exists a non-zero probability that Joseph was a prophet and you and I need to make a decision (to believe or disbelieve) in the presence of this uncertainty. If, in the end, you are right and I’m wrong, then what will it have cost me. I may have wasted my life, attending meetings, serving in an endless number of scout callings, and trying to improve my life and be like Jesus. If there is no afterlife as Joseph taught, then I guess I don’t get that coveted “eternal” reward. Now, I’m finally getting to the third (and perhaps the most important question) – if, on the other hand, I’m right and you’re wrong, then what will it have cost you? Maybe you finally got more freedom. After leaving the Church, you no longer felt guilty drinking alcohol or looking at porn. But what about the afterlife? When the decision to believe or disbelieve in the Restoration of the Gospel is put into this context, it seems that the only rational decision is to believe…
My two cents.
Mormon apologist rubbish…so so much of it abounds
It’s worthless to argue about things that legitimately have 2 sides that can be argued. Let’s talk about the things that only have 1 side, unless you can say that the following was just pure coincidence, in which case youre a complete idiot. One of you believing Mormons explain to me the following, (and this is straight from historical fact. Emma Smith’s own journal, and the doctrine and covenants). Emma Smith walked in on Joseph having sex with Fanny Alger who was a foster daughter of the Smith family. She was 15 at the time. Emma was obviously irate. What’s WEIRD is that a revelation was had by Joseph the very next day. Hmmmm. Which revelation was it? Polygamy. Who says coincidence? Who says God was protecting his prophet? I’ve heard that excuse and it’s even more ridiculous than the coincidence one. Someone please explain it. And, if you’d like, I can come up with at least 20 other instances like this that don’t have an explainatuon. HAVING SEX WITH TEENAGERS IS DISGUSTING!!!!! EVIL. WRONG. SATANIC. K I’LL STOP EVEN THOUGH I HAVE 420.5 OTHER ADJECTIVES TO DESCRIBE SODOMY AND RAPE OF A CHILD. IT HAPPENED. YOU’RE IGNORANT IF YOU THINK IT DIDN’T. EMMA WAS OBVIOUSLY LYING, RIGHT? SHE REALLY DIDN’T SEE THEM HAVING SEX. RIGHT? THEY WERE JUST WRESTLING IN THE STRAW, RIGHT? CUZ WE KNOW JOSEPH WAS A STELLAR FATHER WHO LOVED TO WRESTLE HIS KIDS. RIGHT? ALL EXCUSES I’VE HEARD. TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY INSANITY ON ALL ACCOUNTS.
I’ve heard it before – Joseph was a womanizer. Polygamy was only about sex for him – right? Except, where are the children? The best we can tell, he practiced polygamy from the mid 1830s until his death. Geneticists have not found one child from any of his polygamist wives. In fact, they’ve ruled out all but two wives… As you can imagine – 35 (or so) polygamist wives and not one child for someone that you claim is a womanizer is starting to defy the laws of probability.
Also, you’re writing seems to suggest that you’re an expert about the timing of polygamy. Turns out that there are people (very smart and capable people) who have devoted their lives to better understanding Joseph’s polygamy. They come to different conclusions than you without writing in capital letters and, get this, they have chosen to remain faithful.. If you’re interested, here’s the book – https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smiths-Polygamy-Toward-Understanding/dp/1589587235/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1455140286&sr=8-1&keywords=polygamy+toward+a+better+understanding
Also, during the mid 1800s, when looking at the marriage age of young women, nearly 15% of the distribution were married at 16 or younger. Child rape is evil – but it turns out that the definition of a child today is different than the definition of a child 200 years ago.
jesse, that sounds a lot a like an urge to buy a very expennsive lottery ticket (or, really: the fallacy of pascal’s wager).
expensive how? If anything this is the only fair lottery known to man. Say my estimated probability of Joseph being a prophet is .9. So, my expected eternal reward is .9 multiplied by that reward. I’ll gladly give up my sunday’s and tuesday ights (and 10% of my income) for these odds. Now, if you choose not to be faithful, and suppose your prior probability that Joseph is prophet is only .1. Your expected loss is .1 multiplied by what could’ve been your eternal reward. You’re telling me that drinking alcohol, being 10% richer, and watching a little more football on sunday’s are greater than .1*by your eternal reward??? BTW – this is holding constant all other benefits of church, mutual, etc… Pascal was onto something here.
And the final mike drop of this thread goes to Jesse.
The bible speaks of a day when there would be a great falling away from the church.
It seemed as though all the powers of earth and hell were combining their influence in an especial manner to overthrow the Church at once. … The enemy abroad, and apostates in our midst, united in their schemes, … and many became disaffected toward me as though I were the sole cause of those very evils I was most strenuously striving against. “Any policy that affects children is going to evoke a lot of emotion,” Brooke Swallow, one of the protest organizers, told the Associated Press.
Mormonism is a theological cult. Mormons are in fact not Christians according to Christian doctrine. Not saying that aren’t nice people but not Christian. Different gospel, different Jesus, different God to that in the bible. You’ll find an hour plus video here that is extremely well put together showing side by side the total conflict between Mormon and Christian core beliefs. Mormons use the same terminology but the definitions are totally different. This is one of the very hallmarks of the definition of a sect.
Jesusisthetruth.com
Also this “church” is incredibly financially predatory. No 10% tithing….no temple recommend no after life…I mean that is staggering. There is soooo much reliable scientific information on line that proves Joseph Smith to be a polygamist fraud and frankly rebuttle from Mormon apologists is 98% pathetic creative rubbish. I’m thrilled to see thousands leaving its ranks as the Internet unravels its spin. Heartbreaking what happens to members who see the light and leave and then can’t participate in members of their families marriages for example. What kind of Christian church does that? ….even Jewish wedddings are open for gentile friends to share that wonderful day.
I pray for the end of the Mormon church…it is a man made lie.